Democratic Republic of Iran جمهوری دموکراتیک ایران

The Only Way Forward

حسین کروبی: وضعیت موسوی و کروبی حبس است و نه حصر / Hossein Karroubi Talks About His Father’s Detention & The Future of the Green Movement

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با حسین کروبی، فرزند مهدی کروبی از طریق ایمیل مصاحبه کردیم. او آن طور که خودش می گوید “متواری” است؛ و در توضیح شرایط کنونی می گوید “بالاتر از سیاهی رنگی نیست” اما پدرم هميشه به ما مي گفتند اين شيوه حكومت داري پايدار نخواهد بود و حكومت مجبورست به خواست ملت تن دهد، چون حريفي بسيار بزرگ به نام ملت پيش روي اوست  که امروز در مورد مشروعیت حکومت تردیدهای جدی دارد.ا

بی خبری از آقای کروبی و خانم فاطمه کروبی  از چند هفته هم گذشته، آیا خبری از وضعیت آنهادارید، یا به شما گفته اند جدا از دیدارهای کنترل شده، این وضع تا کی ادامه  می یابد؟ شرطی برای تغییر وضعیت اعلام شده؟

واقعيت اين است كه شرطي به ما اعلام نشده. پدر و مادرم ظاهرا در اختيار وزارت اطلاعات هستند. اما گذاشتن شروط و غيره از حوزه اختيارات وزارت اطلاعات خارج است. توجه داشته باشید وقتي رييس قوه قضائيه ميگويد برخورد با به اصطلاح سران فتنه از حوزه من خارج است، يعني اگر حوادثي بعد از حبس رخ بدهد، يا هر نوع محدوديتي ايجاد شود و يا ادامه پيدا بكند، هيچ كس حتي رييس قوه قضائيه هم مسئوليت نمي پذيرد و مقامات بالاتر بايد تعيين تكليف كنند و يا شرطي بگذارند. از طرفي آيا در مسئله “حبس”، “شرط” هم موضوعيت دارد؟ يعني يك اقدام غير قانوني و غير انساني صورت گرفته؛ حالا ديگر فكر نميكنم موضوع شرط  چيز مهمي باشد. به قول معروف بالاتر از سياهي كه رنگي نيست!ا

برخی معتقدند مسئولان جمهوری اسلامی چاره برخورد با جنبش سبز را در قطع کامل تماس آقایان موسوی و کروبی با مردم یافته اند و با وضع موجود، دیگر فرصت ارتباط مستقیم با مردم رابه آنها نخواهندداد. نظرتان در مورد این تحلیل چیست؟ آیاجنبش دچار نزول خواهدشد؟

به نظرم برعكس؛ قطع كامل ارتباط مردم با آقايان كروبي و موسوي هم فرصت است و هم تهديد. فرصت است براي جنبش و تهديدست براي حكومت.  آقايان كروبي و موسوي بارها اعلام كرده اند كه مردم راه خودشان را یافته اند و زنده و پويا بر خواسته ها يشان پافشاري دارند و هر روز مصمم تر از ديروز هستند؛ در برابر حكومت تنها توانسته است با فشار، كشور را كنترل كند اما آنقدر عاجز و درمانده شده كه حتي از مراسم ختم یک نماينده مجلس و يا مراسم تدفين مادر يكی از وابستگان به اين جنبش هم هراس دارد چه رسد به مراسم براي مرحوم پدر مهندس موسوي. اين درحاليست كه پدرم نقل مي كرد وقتي آيت الله سعيدي در زندان رژيم شاه به شهادت رسيدند مراسم با شكوهي براي ايشان برگزار گرديد و رژيم هم هيچ گونه ممانعتي به عمل نياورد؛ اين نشان ميدهد كه رژيم شاه به ثبات نظامش اطمينان داشت ولی این آقایان این اطمینان را ندارند. از سوی دیگر جنبش با حضور آقايان كروبي و موسوي از حدود و چهارچوب مشخص و خواسته هاي خاصي برخوردار بود اما با اين اقدام حكومت، شرايط و خواسته هاي جنبش متفاوت شده و متفاوت تر هم خواهد گرديد.ا

در مورد نحوه ادامه راه جنبش، با توجه به دیدگاه های آقای کروبی، چه نظری دارید؟

ببینید خواسته هاي مردم مشخص است و هرچه حكومت خشن تر هم برخورد كند، مطالبات مردم بيشتر مي شود. مدیریت و همراهی با این مطالبات، هنرست. من در جريان عمل  دیدم که روحيه و مواضع  آقاي كروبي و مهندس موسوي خرداد 88 با كروبي و موسوي دي و يابهمن  89 چقدر تفاوت داشت. یعنی آنان ضمنا همراهی با مردم و جناح های مختلف فکری موجود در جامعه پرتنوع ما، می کوشیدند به صورتی منطقی جنبش را پیش ببرند؛ لذا كساني كه نقش سخنگويي اين دو بزرگوار را به عهده دارند، همانطور که نباید افراط کنند، دچار تفریط هم نباید بشوند؛ چون هر نوع ضعف در اعلام مواضع، موجب سرخوردگی مردم می شود. از طرف دیگر اين دوستان بايد از نظرات خير خواهانه همه نيروهاي دلسوز كشور استفاده كنند چون اين جنبش متعلق به حزب و گروهي نيست و متعلق به همه اقشار است. بی توجهی به این اصول می تواند تاثیرات منفی بر جنبش بگذارد؛ همان طور که درک درست آن می تواند اسباب خیر باشد.ا

نظر آقای کروبی در مورد اینده جنبش سبز چه بود؟ به نتیجه امیدوار بودند؟

آقاي كروبي يك روز قبل از حبس كامل، طي پيام ويدئويي كوتاهی كه فيلم آن از منزل خارج شد، صريحا وعده پيروزي را دادند. ایشان قبل از آن هم هميشه به ما مي گفتند اين شيوه حكومت داري پايدار نخواهد بود و حكومت مجبورست به خواست ملت تن دهد، چون حريفي بسيار بزرگ به نام ملت پيش روي خود دارد که امروز در مورد مشروعیت حکومت تردیدهای جدی دارد. بی جهت نیست که آقایان برای بازسازی مشروعیت از دست رفته خود، هر روز یک داستان تازه می نویسند؛ یک روز پول یارانه را به امام زمان نسبت می دهند  و روز دیگر متوسل به كارهاي مبتذلی مانند تولید همين سي دي “ظهور نزديك است” ميشوند. آقایان در واقع مي خواهند عدم مقبوليت خود را با تشابه سازي به اين و آن جبران کنند و به این ترتیب به بازسازي چهره شان بپردازند؛ اما به نظر من با اين راه و شيوه اي كه در پيش گرفته اند وبابازی با ارزش ها و باورهاي ديني مردم، ضربه اي بسيار بزرگ خواهند خورد.ا

آیا آقای کروبی پیش از حصر، پیش بینی این روزها را می کردند؟ اگر چنین است نظرشان در مورد ادامه راه و مدیریت جنبش چه بود؟

اول اینکه اين چهار بزرگوار در “حصر” نيستند؛ حصر تعريف مشخصي دارد. اين عزيزان در حبس اند. اما در مورد سئوال؛ آقاي كروبي و موسوي آمادگي هرگونه برخوردي را داشتند و از مدتها پیش منتظر چنين روزي هم بودند. از همان روزها هم آقاي كروبي معتقد بود راه بسيار سختي در پيش داريم، و معتقد بودند مديريت جنبش بايد دردست افرادي باشد ثابت قدم و آماده پرداخت هرگونه هزينه. کسانی كه در تصميم گيري ها، در عين قاطعيت بر اساس عقل و منافع و مصالح مردم رفتار كنند، تا خداي ناكرده مديريت جنبش به دست افراد ضعيف يا فرصت طلب نيفتدو بلايي كه بر سر اصلاحات آمد بر سر جنبش نيايد.ا

و سوال آخر: امروز وضعیت فرزندان آقای کروبی چگونه است؟

متاسفانه وقتي دستشان به ما نرسيد و ما متواري شديم، برادرم علي را به اتهام مضحك و مسخره جاسوسي براي كشورهاي خليج فارس دستگير و بعد از چند هفته با قرار وثيقه آزاد كردند. براي دو برادرم بجز ممنوع الخروج نمودن هنوز مشكلي ايجاد نكرده اند. ولي من متواري هستم تا ببينم در آينده چه تصميمي در خصوص خودم خواهم گرفت و خدا چه تقديري را برايم رقم خواهد زد.ا

منبع: روز آنلاین

In an email interview with Roozonline, Hossein Karroubi, Mehdi Karroubi’s son states that he has become a fugitive and although he describes the current situation as difficult and dark, reiterates that his father always believed that this approach to governance is unsustainable and the regime will sooner or later have to give in to the will of the people, for there is no opponent more formidable than the people of Iran, a nation that now more than ever, has serious doubts about the legitimacy of its own government.

It has been more than a few weeks without any news regarding Mr. and Mrs. Karroubi. Have you been provided with an update on their condition? Except for the visitations that took place under tight security, have they [the ruling government] indicated how long this situation will last? Have they defined any conditions under which the current situation might change?

The truth is that we have not been informed of any so called conditions.  My mother and father are apparently under the control of the Intelligence Ministry and defining conditions is outside the jurisdiction of the Intelligence Ministry. Of course we must not forget that the head of the Judiciary himself has claimed that dealing with the reformists and the so called “heads of the sedition” is outside the realm of his responsibility. In other words, no one, not even the head of the Judiciary is willing to accept responsibility for any incident occurring after the house arrest and if restrictions are imposed or continued, it is higher ranking officials that must therefore provide guidance, make decisions and define conditions.  The question that remains unanswered is whether discussing any so called “conditions” is of relevance when the individuals in question are under “detention” and an illegal and inhumane act has been committed. In my opinion the issue of so called conditions becomes mute when the reality is so dark and dire. As we Iranians say, “Is there any color darker than black?”

Some are of the opinion that in order to defeat the Green movement, the authorities of the Islamic Republic have resorted to eliminating all communication between Mr. Mousavi, Mr. Karroubi and the people of Iran and given the current situation they will no longer allow these gentlemen to have direct contact with the people. What is your opinion regarding this hypothesis? Will the Green movement fail as a result of these latest developments?

 

On the contrary, in my opinion, rendering Mr. Karroubi and Mr. Mousavi incommunicado presents both an opportunity and a threat; an opportunity for the nation of Iran and a threat to the existing regime.  Both Mr. Karroubi and Mr. Mousavi have repeatedly stated that the people of Iran have found their path. They are vibrant and dynamic, insisting upon their demands and becoming more determined with the passing of each day.  In contrast, the regime has only been able to control the country through pressure and oppression. Those in power are so incapable and helpless that they were not only fearful of what might happened at the funeral services for Mir Hossein Mousavi’s late father, but they also feared allowing events such as a funeral services for a member of the parliament and a burial ceremony for a mother of one of the supporters of the Green movement.  I recall my father telling us about the glorious ceremony that was held during the time of the Shah’s regime when Ayatollah Saeedi was martyred in prison.  At the time the Shah’s regime did not take any action to prevent the ceremony from taking place. This demonstrates that unlike the Shah who at the time was confident of the stability of his regime, these gentlemen are not. The Green movement benefited from certain boundaries and a specific framework and set of demands as a result of the presence of Mr. Karroubi and Mr. Mousavi. However the current actions taken by the regime have led to a variety of demands and conditions within the Green movement. These demands will change and become even more varying with the passing of time.

How do you think the Green movement should proceed, given your understanding of Mr. Karroubi’s viewpoints?

The people’s demands are clear and the more the regime resorts to violence, the higher the demands of the people will be in response to that violence.  Knowing how to govern and dealing with such issues is an art form. In practice, I witnessed the significant change between the spirit and positions of Mr. Karroubi and Mr. Mousavi in June pf 1999 [after the presidential elections] as apposed to January and February of 2011. In other words, they remaining the companions of our people, a nation that consists of a variety of factions and individuals with differing intellectual viewpoints and at the same time sought to further the cause of the Green movement in a logical and reasonable manner. Those who now play the role of spokesperson for these two honorable men, must neither fall short, nor resort to extremes, for any weakness in communicating the situation at hand will only lead to the frustration of our people. At the same time, these friends [referring to those who are representing Mousavi and Karroubi in their absence] should take advantage of all of our country’s sympathetic and well intentioned forces for this movement does not belong to any particular group or political party. It belongs to all segments of our society. Ignoring these principles will have a negative impact on the movement, while the correct understanding and handling of them will have positive impact.

How did Mr. Karroubi feel about the future of the Green movement? Was he optimistic about the future and the goals of the movement?

One day prior to his house arrest, in a video message that made it out to the Green media outlets, Mr. Karroubi spoke explicitly of the promise of victory. Even prior to recording his last video message, my father always believed that this approach to governance was unsustainable. He believed that the regime will sooner or later have to give in to the will of the people, for there is no opponent more formidable than the people of Iran, a nation that now more than ever, has serious doubts about the legitimacy of its own government.  It is not surprising that these gentlemen are engaging in concocting new stories every day in order to regain their lost legitimacy.  One day they attribute the government subsidies to Mahdi [the last Imam] and the next day they engage in vulgar behavior such as producing a CD entitled “Judgment Day is Near”.  In reality these gentlemen only seek to compensate for their lack of acceptance, with the goal to rebuild their tarnished image.  In my opinion however, this type of behavior and playing with the values and religious beliefs of our people, will only result in a large setback for the ruling government.

 

Did Mr. Karroubi predict the current conditions prior to his house arrest? If so what was his opinion regarding the leadership of the Green movement and how it should proceed moving forward?

First and foremost these four honorable individuals are not under house arrest, as house arrest has a specific definition. These beloved individuals have been incarcerated. As for your question, Mr. Karroubi and Mr. Mousavi awaited the arrival of such a day long ago and were always ready for any type of confrontation.  From the very beginning, Mr. Karroubi believed that we have a very difficult road ahead of us. He believed that the leadership of the movement should be in the hands of individuals who are steadfast and willing to pay any price.  He believed that the leadership should be in the hands of individuals who in addition to being assertive, would make decisions that were logical and reasonable and in the best interest of the people. For if God forbid the movement would fall in the hands of individuals who were weak or opportunistic, as the Green movement could end up with the same fate as that of the Reform Movement.

In conclusion, please tell us about the condition of Mr. Karroubi’s children. How are you all doing?

Unfortunately when they were unable to get a hold of me and I was able to escape, they went after my brother Ali. He was accused of ridiculous crimes such as spying for other Persian Gulf countries and after a few weeks in prison was finally released on bail.  Except for the fact that my two brothers have been banned from leaving the country, the ruling government has not created any other problems for them.  As for me, I have become a fugitive. I have to wait and see what the future holds and what God has in store for me.

Translation by Banooye Sabz

Filed under: iran, iran election, Iran News, Iranian protests, Karroubi, ایران,

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